Editing Forum:"Unobtainables" infoboxes

{{Forumheader|The World that Never was}}

<!-- Please put your content under this line.  Be sure to sign your edits with either your talk page template or four tildes ~~~~ -->

It's not a major addition, but I was thinking of creating infoboxes for unobtainable key items or weapons (Master Xehanort's Keyblade, as an example), to maintain just a tiny bit of consistency for the overall pages.  The boxes obviously won't have much info with no real stats to speak of, but it's sort of a jarring transition reading the page for Royal Radiance, to said dude's keyblade where the image just sort of floats on the side of the article.  To differentiate from unobtainables, perhaps make the box header color black or grey instead of the reddish-pink, and add a nice big "N/A" under the "obtained" tab.  It's not a major change, but it'll help the wiki look a bit cleaner and more consistent.  --[[User:Webber22|Webber22]] ([[User talk:Webber22|talk]]) 02:57, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

:I went ahead and made an experimental infobox for it, and tried it out with [[Master Xehanort's Keyblade]].  Honestly, it looks good!  Brings that air of consistency and cleanliness I was going for.  Although I still haven't quite figured out how to add the keychain - I'll leave that to better editors than me to fix.  In any case, ideas suggestions - other stuffs?  --[[User:Webber22|Webber22]] ([[User talk:Webber22|talk]]) 03:30, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

:I'm not an admin here so I give a final say on these things, but if an infobox is being made, perhaps it should be the same one we could use for [[User:TheFifteenthMember/List of Key Items Draft|Key items]]? Also, should a Navi/Category is needed for the Unobtainable items as well? But as for the actual infobox, I like the idea of having one, and it's looking great so far! {{User:Chainoffire/sig}} 04:02, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

I reverted your edit. While it's fine for you to experiment on infoboxes, that is why the wiki have its [[KHWiki:Sandbox]] for. Please use it for further testing.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 04:16, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

:It's fine, it doesn't really need any further testing anyhow.  I tinkered with it to a satisfactory point, so if you guys want any changes go on ahead and play with it.  Now we just need a final say, but I would think it's a success. --[[User:Webber22|Webber22]] ([[User talk:Webber22|talk]]) 04:50, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
::I put it in the sandbox if you want to take a look.  --[[User:Webber22|Webber22]] ([[User talk:Webber22|talk]]) 04:57, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Played around with it a little bit more, and now I'm fully satisfied.  Black is probably the way to go - the "N/A" tab being gray kind of emphasizes the whole "unobtainable" thing as well.  --[[User:Webber22|Webber22]] ([[User talk:Webber22|talk]]) 06:16, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't really see the point of an infobox for unobtainable weapons. I mean, it holds no info, except the name. Also, if it's for unobtainable weapons only, you should remove the Obtained column. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 06:47, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

:It just looks cleaner and is more consistent with the rest of the pages - virtually ''everything else'' has a box.  --[[User:Webber22|Webber22]] ([[User talk:Webber22|talk]]) 07:18, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
::At least give the infobox some actual info, like games the weapon appears in or characters that use it (although that will be obvious for some, since it is in the name.) {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 14:49, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
I vote against since weapon infoboxes are usually for gameplay information, whereas unobtainable weapons are more like plot relics. {{User:TheFifteenthMember/Sig1}} 15:29, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
:In that case, why does something like the Olympus Stone have a ''weapon'' info box? --[[User:Webber22|Webber22]] ([[User talk:Webber22|talk]]) 16:24, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
::Key items have infoboxes because actually have information to add to the infobox, such as description, japanese, buy/sell etc. {{User:TheFifteenthMember/Sig1}} 16:51, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
:::Past consensus was that, to have an infobox, the subject would need to have some form of "stat" -- some form of description (item log or journal), or stuff like STR, MAG, price, etc. If all we're doing is supplanting a nihongo template and image, it seems slightly overkill. For example, our Keyblade infoboxes only cover the versions held by gameable(?) characters -- Master's Defender is an infobox for Aqua's version, not Eraqus's, etc. (Technically, I think we should have a thumbnail for Eraqus's version in the article's gallery.)
:::So, if we're going to use this infobox, consistency would require that we apply it to stuff like Eraqus's Master's Defender, and probably Kairi/Riku's Destiny's Embrace, etc. How would your proposal organize that?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 19:04, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
::::Like I said, look at the Olympus Stone.  The "stats" tabs are just blanks.  No stats, yet it's till there.  I mean, you COULD go with that albeit use the black and gray color scheme - I just figured there would be no need for them, so I kept it simple. --[[User:Webber22|Webber22]] ([[User talk:Webber22|talk]]) 21:24, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
:::The Olympus Stone infobox has the item's in-game description. The infobox for that should probably be rejiggered so that the unused cells don't display, but there ''is'' at least some in-game data to attach to the item. For Xehanort's Keyblade, or Eraqus's version of Master's Defender, we don't have that. What I'm asking is, beyond adding infoboxes to articles that don't already have them, how do you propose to extend the use consistently to handle stuff like Master's Defender?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 23:35, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
::::Well, it's a bit of a longshot....what about Ultimania descriptions?  They're about as legit and official as anything else. That said, do we ''have'' to put in anything else?  What's wrong with just keep them for the katakana and romanization?  The whole point of info boxes is to keep what we do know neatly collected, and that's what we '''do''' know. It makes the info box smaller, and....so what lol?  They don't ''have'' to have a whole bunch of stats and whatnot.  And when they ''do'' get their stats, we just fixer the boxes up so that they display.  The beauty of wikis, right?  The only reason why I proposed this was so that these few pages don't stick out as the ugly cousins. --[[User:Webber22|Webber22]] ([[User talk:Webber22|talk]]) 14:51, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
:::::We don't necessarily have to, no. I'm not attacking your proposal, merely asking you to flesh it out. Basically, are you proposing:
#Infoboxes for all iterations of a Keychain that are not wielded by a playable character, and thus lack in-game parameters? If so,
##How do you propose that Vanitas's Void Gear, or Eraqus's Master's Defender be handled?
##How do we handle the conflict between visual Keychain use and mechanical Keychain use (i.e., CoM, or Riku using Destiny's Embrace in KHII, or Riku using Kingdom Key in KH)? What about Keychains that only appear in trailers, or flashbacks, or stuff like Nightmare's End?
##Is there anything that makes these infoboxes preferable to simply using a nihongo template? If so,
###Why do they need to have a different color scheme than all other Keychain infoboxes?
#Infoboxes for all Keychains that do not already have infoboxes on their article?
##How do you propose that Vanitas's Void Gear, or Eraqus's Master's Defender be handled?
##Is there anything that makes these infoboxes preferable to simply using a nihongo template? If so,
###Why do they need to have a different color scheme than all other Keychain infoboxes?
#Something else entirely?
:::::I can definitely see value in uniformity of aesthetic, it's just that I can also see functional obstacles that would definitely need to be resolved before we commit to this.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 17:20, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

I never thought you were attacking me lol.  Though, I will admit - I was avoiding your initial question since I had no idea what the hell you were saying.  So, thanks for expanding on it.  Anyway, I will admit, the primary reason for this is the aesthetic - I just feel we need consistency for these pages.  But how to handle some of them are fair questions.  For starters...I had always assumed Eraqus's key blade and "Aqua's" were one in the same, not two completely different weapons.  As for the Void Gear, that one I do feel we should separate.  Was Vanitas's red keyblade ever specifically referred to as Void Gear?  To my knowledge, only the monochrome version was ever named.  Regardless, the coloration alone should set them apart as different beasts.  As to why these infoboxes are colored differently from other keychain boxes?  I would think the fact that these can't be obtained through means other than modding would qualify.  These are unobtainable weapons - for now.  Once they are obtainable, by all means, slap them into a regular keychain template.  --[[User:Webber22|Webber22]] ([[User talk:Webber22|talk]]) 03:28, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
::It sounds like you're taking option 2, and saying that NPC's variants of a Keychain should remain in the image gallery? Therefore, this infobox would ''only'' be used for [[Foreteller's Keyblade]], [[Master Xehanort's Keyblade]], [[Young Xehanort's Keyblade]], [[Lea's Keyblade]], [[Combined Keyblade]], [[χ-blade]], and [[Keyblade of heart]], and would be replaced by any infobox for a future game appearance?
::I think this can work, but we'd need to (1) move the "game" parameter from the lead of every existing item infobox down to below the "romaji" parameter, so that we can have uniformity there, and enter "N/A" or "Not obtainable" as a default entry for the "obtained" parameter. Also, I really don't see the need to have different coloration for this infobox -- "not obtainable" doesn't spring to mind as the obvious meaning of the coloration, and when we insert an "obtained" cell to specifically state that it's not obtainable, it becomes a moot point.
::While we're at it, we should fix the coloring for the BbS and coded infoboxes to match the color scheme of the other games. Not sure why they're using the Days color scheme.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 14:12, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
:::I think it will be a better idea to use the game's infobox (InfoKeyBBS for MX's Keyblade for example), and make the stats optional. That way it is consistent with other Keyblades, without needing a separate template.
:::I think the colors are meant to alternate (yellow for KH, red for COM, yellow for KHII, etc.), although that would mean BBS, RCO, and DDD should have the other color. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 15:00, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
::::The CoM box had that color scheme to match the Sora-Riku red-blue thing, which it no longer maintains. The KH and KHII ones I'm guessing were meant to resemble the Kingdom Key. After that, it's pretty much just been an accident of copying the closest existing template. Since we've pretty thoroughly dismantled the original reasons for those color schemes, I think it would make sense to incorporate the "Kingdom Key" scheme on all Keyblade/weapon infoboxes.
::::So is the principle then that we prioritize full-game appearances over teaser vids (MXK first appeared within the Birth by Sleep teaser vid), or ignore those vids completely? Are we okay with the infobox only noting the first full-game appearance (MKX appears in 3D as well)?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 15:46, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
:::::I say we don't count the teaser videos. As for multiple game appearances, I think we should only list the first one, unless the Keyblade changes design entirely in another game. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 15:59, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
:::::::I can't think of any Keyblades which appear only in teaser vids, unless there are Graveyard Keyblades which Xehanort/Vanitas don't use to attack in BBS (should we have a page for those, by the way?) So, that seems like a satisfactory method.
:::::::Only thing I can think of that the design change would apply to is the Foreteller's Keyblade, the X-blade, and the Combined Keyblade, which aren't so much instances of "multiple games" as "multiple forms". Everything else either already has a stat-based infobox or has only one form.
::::::::Hazarding a guess, I'm thinking that you guys would want the Foreteller's Keyblade page to have tabs, but the X-blade and Combined Keyblade pages to show the "complete" forms in the infobox with the "piece" forms in a gallery? Just for future's sake, what would be advised if we later get stats for, says, the Unicornis Keyblade, but not any of the others?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 19:09, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::We can tab the Foretellers Keyblades and give them their own template, and if we get stats for one we can add it to that template, or we could split them if we get the stats. For weapons with multiple forms, we can tab the images. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 17:19, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
::::::::::So for the MXK, all of its forms will be in the infobox, but for Ends of the Earth, Void Gear, Destiny's Embrace, those will still have galleries?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 17:45, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::Would we want to put the Edge of Ultima and Detection Saber in one of these too, since they don't have any real stats? Or should we leave them as part of the Ultima weapon page? {{User:Chainoffire/sig}} 17:58, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::::For Ends of the Earth and Destiny's Embrace, I don't think the differences between images are big enough to give it an extra infobox. For MXK, those aren't really forms, but it just changes shape in-battle, so they should stay in the gallery. For Void Gear, I honestly don't know. I guess we could put Vanitas's (and Remnant's) version in it's own tab, but what would we call the tabs? Terra/Ventus/Aqua and Vanitas? As for Detection Saber and Edge of Ultima, they don't appear in-game (except through hacking), so we should leave them on Ultima Weapon's page. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 18:02, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
:::So, are we changing it to "every iteration of a keychain", then, instead of "only pages lacking an infobox"?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 19:51, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
::::Except the Keyblade of heart doesn't have a keychain. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 20:03, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
:::::"Keychain" as in "form of a keyblade". As in, why we have separate pages for Jungle King and Mysterious Abyss rather than merging them as different forms of the same Keyblade.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 22:10, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
::::::Should the Wooden Keyblade get an infobox? And what about the Struggle Bats? Actually, Sora and Roxas can use those, so don't they have stats? {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 10:06, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
::::::::Struggle Bats should get infoboxes, but use the KHII weapon ones. I'm not sure if we've gotten their stats written down somewhere. Wooden Keyblade and stuff like that, I assumed we weren't doing because the original request was for an infobox for unboxxed Keychains.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 16:41, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::It's just that both the [[Wooden Sword]] and [[Wooden Stick]] have one, but that's because they're equippable. I'll go ahead and change the templates. The Unobtainable infobox can be removed now, right?<br>EDIT:I changed the templates except InfoKeyKHX, because it has a ton of | which need to be changed to <nowiki>{{!}}</nowiki> and I'm currently not in the mood for it. I'll do it later, unless someone wants to do it for me... {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 16:48, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::For Void Gear (and in fact, incomplete X-blade, Combined Keyblade portions, and MXK forms), I don't see the point of incorporating the infobox. As with LW's Ends of the Earth, and other Keyblades that appear in a game different than the one they are usable in, I think the gallery's fine -- certainly we use it for the Ultimania concept art to no ill effect (for that matter, the Combined Keyblade ''only'' has concept art, so should it really have an infobox at this point?). My personal PoV is that trying to mesh what is, for practical purposes, an in-game model to the stat-based infobox ''where not absolutely necessary'' is messy.
:::::::::That being said, I've reverted the current inclusion of Void Gear because, at the very least, it's showing the wrong keychain. If consensus is that it gets re-implemented, then the coding will have to be fixed to address that.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 03:12, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Sorry guys, had an upset stomach for a few days.  But it looks like ya'll already took care of it.  :)  Awesome!
:Oh, I uploaded Lea's keychain at the very least:  http://www.khwiki.com/File:Lea%27s_Keyblade_Keychain_KH3D.png  --[[User:Webber22|Webber22]] ([[User talk:Webber22|talk]]) 03:58, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
::::::::::So we should have only one image in the infobox? As for the concept art, there isn't a render available at the time, and I figured that it is better than nothing. When we do get a render, we can move the art back to the gallery. For Void Gear, you can use the keychain parameter to add a different image, but I don't think we have an image of Vanitas's keychain (and the Remnant's keychain is also black and white).
::::::::::@Webber22: Where did you get that image? Because we need Keychain images for all KH3D Keyblades. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 12:04, 7 June 2015 (UTC)::::::::
:::::::::::Lol, I just cropped it from the render we had.  As for the rest of them, I think it's just a matter of time.  Some folks over at XeNTaX have managed to crack the rom image but still working out some speed bumps.  Now, I have a question about the Foreteller key blades....I think we're gonna need a new info box altogether for them?   I tried making one yesterday and it was a total mess.  --[[User:Webber22|Webber22]] ([[User talk:Webber22|talk]]) 14:13, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
::::::::::::Oh, and of course, I still vote that we should remove Vanitas's Void Gear from the...erm, Void Gear page altogether and make a separate one.  His variation is, if nothing else, at least unique enough for that.  (Like the difference between Kingdom Key and Kingdom Key D...I guess?)--[[User:Webber22|Webber22]] ([[User talk:Webber22|talk]]) 14:15, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
{{od|::::::::::::}}
The Foreteller Keyblades will use InfoKeyKHX, but I need to make a few changes to it first. The difference between the Kingdom Key and Kingdom Key D is that they are two different Keyblades, while the Void Gear and Vanitas's Void Gear are the same. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 15:06, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
:I'm not at all opposed to having more than one image in the infobox; it's more the issue of showing incomplete versions in the infobox. I don't want to eventually have the infobox include the incomplete Graveyard Sleeping Lion, the incomplete KHX Lady Luck, or Data-Sora's shattered Data-Keyblade, that kind of thing.
:I'm not strongly opposed to including the concept art, it just feels weird. I'd be happiest if the infobox simply didn't have an image until we had a render, but I have no desire to push that issue.
:For Void Gear, the issue is that the sole time the Keychain's been identified by Nomura, he treated it as identical to the keychains the protagonists receive. Honestly, given the theme naming (which is shared with No Name and the whole No Heart thing), there's not much reason to assume that the "true name" of Vanitas's version ''is'' different. Kingdom Key and Kingdom Key D, on the other hand, have different pages not because of their graphical difference (after all, the KHBbS and KHX keychains all have graphical differences), but because the fiction explicitly identifies them as unique Keychains, names and all. If Nomura ever changes that, or even just says something like "they didn't receive Vanitas's keychain, they received one mimicking the Remnant's attempted mimicry", that would be enough to split, but until then, there's not really a good argument for it that wouldn't demand splitting all of Terra/Ventus/Aqua's variants or the KHX Keyblade enhancements.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 15:17, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
::I agree with keeping the Void Gear in the gallery, although in your examples above, the Keyblades all look the same as the obtained ones, while Vanitas's Void Gear has different colors. (And we already have KHD Riku's Oblivion in the infobox).
::I finished the InfoKeyKHX template. Tabbing the images in the template itself will probably not fit, since the names are pretty long and there are five of them. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 15:42, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
:::Teeeeechnically, Anti-Sora's Kingdom Key and Anti-Riku's Oblivion, Riku/Kairi's Destiny's Embrace, and the KH2 Ends of the Earth and Stormfall differ in design.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 22:36, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
@@ Line 74: / Line 74: @@
 {{od|::::::::::::}}
 The Foreteller Keyblades will use InfoKeyKHX, but I need to make a few changes to it first. The difference between the Kingdom Key and Kingdom Key D is that they are two different Keyblades, while the Void Gear and Vanitas's Void Gear are the same. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 15:06, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
-:I'm not at all opposed to having more than one image in the infobox; it's more the issue of showing incomplete versions in the infobox. I don't want to eventually have the infobox include the incomplete Graveyard Sleeping Lion, the Soul Eater (on WttD), the incomplete KHX Lady Luck, or Data-Sora's shattered Data-Keyblade, that kind of thing. Clearly we have precedent to allow TVA-style Keychain variants, so I'd be happy enough incorporating the Foretellers into that. For Vanitas...erg. It would make sense to incorporate his version, Foreteller-style, but having a TVA tab and a Vanitas tab just feels inelegant to me, and it would beg us to also include stuff like:
+:I'm not at all opposed to having more than one image in the infobox; it's more the issue of showing incomplete versions in the infobox. I don't want to eventually have the infobox include the incomplete Graveyard Sleeping Lion, the incomplete KHX Lady Luck, or Data-Sora's shattered Data-Keyblade, that kind of thing.
-*Kingdom Key D (KH1 Mickey, KHCoM Mickey, KH3D Mickey)
-*Kingdom Key (KH1 Riku and Anti-Sora, KHCoM Zexion)
-*Destiny's Embrace (KH2 Riku and Kairi)
-*Earthshaker (KHBbS Mimic Master)
-*Ends of the Earth (KH2 Lingering Will)
-*Rainfell (KHBbS Mimic Master)
-*Stormfall (KH2 Aqua)
-*Wayward Wind (KHBbS Mimic Master)
-*Oblivion (KHD Riku and Anti-Riku)
-*Star Seeker (KHRec Mickey, KHBbS Mickey, KHX Mickey)
-*MX Keyblade (KHBbS No Heart and Terra-Xehanort)
-*Master's Defender (KHBbS Armor of Eraqus and Master Eraqus)
-*Starlight (KHX Ephemera)
-:We keep Vanitas's Void Gear in the gallery and we avoid ''all'' that.
 :I'm not strongly opposed to including the concept art, it just feels weird. I'd be happiest if the infobox simply didn't have an image until we had a render, but I have no desire to push that issue.
 :For Void Gear, the issue is that the sole time the Keychain's been identified by Nomura, he treated it as identical to the keychains the protagonists receive. Honestly, given the theme naming (which is shared with No Name and the whole No Heart thing), there's not much reason to assume that the "true name" of Vanitas's version ''is'' different. Kingdom Key and Kingdom Key D, on the other hand, have different pages not because of their graphical difference (after all, the KHBbS and KHX keychains all have graphical differences), but because the fiction explicitly identifies them as unique Keychains, names and all. If Nomura ever changes that, or even just says something like "they didn't receive Vanitas's keychain, they received one mimicking the Remnant's attempted mimicry", that would be enough to split, but until then, there's not really a good argument for it that wouldn't demand splitting all of Terra/Ventus/Aqua's variants or the KHX Keyblade enhancements.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 15:17, 7 June 2015 (UTC)