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* [[Talk:Roxas/Archive 1|Archive 1]] - September 8, 2010 | * [[Talk:Roxas/Archive 1|Archive 1]] - September 8, 2010 | ||
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== Roxas Dual Wielding (Xion's Keyblade Not Ventus's) == | == Roxas Dual Wielding (Xion's Keyblade Not Ventus's) == | ||
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{{LA|Vtext=I agree, iZerox. After all, Ventus doesn't wield Kingdom Key. | {{LA|Vtext=I agree, iZerox. After all, Ventus doesn't wield Kingdom Key. | ||
As for Nomura's confirmation, we also can't forget [[Talk: | As for Nomura's confirmation, we also can't forget [[Talk:Bequeathing#Inheritance?|Kryten's Wall o' text battleship]] that underlines how inconsistent Nomura is with Keyblade possession. But go figure.}} | ||
Hey how everybody doin! | Hey how everybody doin! | ||
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:::As a reminder to all the recurring editors involved: long-standing wiki-policy is that information should not be placed in trivia unless absolutely necessary. If a relevant section on the article ''can'' be found, the info ''must'' be placed there. Information about the design of a character in a piece of official material falls under the Design header, ergo it is a violation of policy to move the material to the Trivia section -- as I've explained several times, including directly to the IP. Policy is also that in the event of an edit war, the article should be reverted to its ''pre''-edit war state, and that consensus should be derived based on wiki ''policies'', not on personal preferences. It's pretty troubling that this issue has even gotten to this point, as there are a multitude of wiki policies that should have been followed preventing this, and that the previous consensus discussed earlier in the article, with clear references to wiki policy by trusted users, appears to have been wholly ignored.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 12:37, 5 August 2019 (UTC) | :::As a reminder to all the recurring editors involved: long-standing wiki-policy is that information should not be placed in trivia unless absolutely necessary. If a relevant section on the article ''can'' be found, the info ''must'' be placed there. Information about the design of a character in a piece of official material falls under the Design header, ergo it is a violation of policy to move the material to the Trivia section -- as I've explained several times, including directly to the IP. Policy is also that in the event of an edit war, the article should be reverted to its ''pre''-edit war state, and that consensus should be derived based on wiki ''policies'', not on personal preferences. It's pretty troubling that this issue has even gotten to this point, as there are a multitude of wiki policies that should have been followed preventing this, and that the previous consensus discussed earlier in the article, with clear references to wiki policy by trusted users, appears to have been wholly ignored.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 12:37, 5 August 2019 (UTC) | ||
::::No policy, no matter what how old it is or how significant it may have once been, should trump the consensus reached by the community in the present day. The Kingdom Hearts Wiki is written and run by its editors and contributors, not its policies and procedures. | ::::No policy, no matter what how old it is or how significant it may have once been, should trump the consensus reached by the community in the present day. The Kingdom Hearts Wiki is written and run by its editors and contributors, not its policies and procedures. | ||
::::Having said that, you've cited many different policies in your argument, and have explicitly called the staff out for failing to uphold them in favor of a "non-consensus-demonstrated version" of the page. So I'll bite. Your post (including your [https://www.khwiki.com/index.php?title=Talk%3ARoxas&type=revision&diff=784326&oldid=784288 previous post, which you significantly altered and removed content from], in violation of [[Help: | ::::Having said that, you've cited many different policies in your argument, and have explicitly called the staff out for failing to uphold them in favor of a "non-consensus-demonstrated version" of the page. So I'll bite. Your post (including your [https://www.khwiki.com/index.php?title=Talk%3ARoxas&type=revision&diff=784326&oldid=784288 previous post, which you significantly altered and removed content from], in violation of [[Help:New user guide#Article_Talk_Pages|site policies]]) boils down to at least four matters of policy: what qualifies as trivia, what the "Appearance" section of a character article's page covers, whether there is a policy on notability, and what the Kingdom Hearts Wiki's scope covers. I throw in here my once-a-year-or-more plug that, because many of our policies are not written down somewhere easily-findable, we ought to do something to make them more easily referenceable so that new editors can become familiar with them, rather than belittle them when they make repeated edits that violate a heretofore unfindable policy. | ||
::::'''What qualifies as trivia?''': Only the [[KHWiki:Manual of Style#Trivia|Manual of Style]] defines trivia. It is defined as "information that is not significant or vital to either the game or gameplay, does not fit in other places of the article, and is of interest to note. Examples include seemingly unintentional recurrences, real-world references, or seemingly unintentional but marked similarities between two subjects. Trivia must be true and verified; neither speculation nor opinion-based conjectures are trivia." It's also of interest, in my search today through the wiki archives (for which I'm now very dusty, thank you), that [[Forum:Wiki Improvement|you once defined trivia]] as "notable oddities and uniqueness, as well as purposeful references". Whether this artwork counts as trivia is up for debate: it is not vital or significant to either the game or gameplay, and it is odd and unique. But it could potentially fit in another place in the article, namely, the "Appearance section. | ::::'''What qualifies as trivia?''': Only the [[KHWiki:Manual of Style#Trivia|Manual of Style]] defines trivia. It is defined as "information that is not significant or vital to either the game or gameplay, does not fit in other places of the article, and is of interest to note. Examples include seemingly unintentional recurrences, real-world references, or seemingly unintentional but marked similarities between two subjects. Trivia must be true and verified; neither speculation nor opinion-based conjectures are trivia." It's also of interest, in my search today through the wiki archives (for which I'm now very dusty, thank you), that [[Forum:Wiki Improvement|you once defined trivia]] as "notable oddities and uniqueness, as well as purposeful references". Whether this artwork counts as trivia is up for debate: it is not vital or significant to either the game or gameplay, and it is odd and unique. But it could potentially fit in another place in the article, namely, the "Appearance section. | ||
::::'''What does the "Appearance" section cover?''': Again, we refer to the Manual of Style, which states: "Explain the character's physical appearance". Pretty straight forward. This would be considered describing Roxas's physical appearance in a single piece of artwork. | ::::'''What does the "Appearance" section cover?''': Again, we refer to the Manual of Style, which states: "Explain the character's physical appearance". Pretty straight forward. This would be considered describing Roxas's physical appearance in a single piece of artwork. | ||
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:::::Aside from the points that KSM addressed, which I agree with, Kryten, you need to drop the attitude. It's true that while you're the user on the wiki with the most seniority aside from Neumannz, you have a very long history of resorting to insults and being hypocritical in your arguments whenever something doesn't go your way. Despite being a long-time editor here, you constantly engage in heated debates instead of defusing the situation and display disrespectful behavior towards others. Telling someone "okay, well with all due respect, your opinion is wrong" is not appropriate since we advocate to keep things civil and professional, and does not give an impression that you open to dialogue but rather forcing your own rules onto the community. Using shaming tactics to guilt the editors for not living up to ''your'' expectations and ideas of the rules are like instead of what they actually are is insulting. I advise you to watch your tone and understand that policies/rules change over time, and that is something we need to decide as a community. I agree that we should revise our MoS and make things a lot more explicit as KSM recommended. | :::::Aside from the points that KSM addressed, which I agree with, Kryten, you need to drop the attitude. It's true that while you're the user on the wiki with the most seniority aside from Neumannz, you have a very long history of resorting to insults and being hypocritical in your arguments whenever something doesn't go your way. Despite being a long-time editor here, you constantly engage in heated debates instead of defusing the situation and display disrespectful behavior towards others. Telling someone "okay, well with all due respect, your opinion is wrong" is not appropriate since we advocate to keep things civil and professional, and does not give an impression that you open to dialogue but rather forcing your own rules onto the community. Using shaming tactics to guilt the editors for not living up to ''your'' expectations and ideas of the rules are like instead of what they actually are is insulting. I advise you to watch your tone and understand that policies/rules change over time, and that is something we need to decide as a community. I agree that we should revise our MoS and make things a lot more explicit as KSM recommended. | ||
:::::Until you can be open to dialogue and behave civilly regarding this matter, the majority of users here agreed that the passage should be removed since it's far too subjective and it should be removed.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 02:33, 6 August 2019 (UTC) | :::::Until you can be open to dialogue and behave civilly regarding this matter, the majority of users here agreed that the passage should be removed since it's far too subjective and it should be removed.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 02:33, 6 August 2019 (UTC) | ||
::::::"The Kingdom Hearts Wiki is written and run by its editors and contributors, not its policies and procedures." -- that consensus consists of more than | ::::::"The Kingdom Hearts Wiki is written and run by its editors and contributors, not its policies and procedures." -- that consensus consists of more than four editors and an anon over a weekend. | ||
::::::"which you significantly altered and removed content from, in violation of site policies" -- | ::::::"which you significantly altered and removed content from, in violation of site policies" -- that refers to altering ''other editors' posts'', not rephrasing your own content. I rephrased what I had written, without removing any of the actual meaning, in order to deescalate. | ||
::::::"I throw in here my once-a-year-or-more plug that, because many of our policies are not written down somewhere easily-findable, we ought to do something to make them more easily referenceable so that new editors can become familiar with them, rather than belittle them when they make repeated edits that violate a heretofore unfindable policy." -- I am not staff. I have experience and memory, but it is the ''staff's'' responsibility to codify and concentrate the wiki policies if they feel they are not suitably publicized. You are staff. You have full ability to update the MoS with said policies, or open up a forum on whether they should be obsoleted. That being said: | |||
*The policy I referred to regarding what counts as trivia is already in the MoS. | |||
*The definition of the Appearance section is already in the MoS. | |||
*The lack of a notability requirement is inherent in there ''not being a stated requirement for notability'', as well as stating that we cover everything that is an official part of the franchise. | |||
*The scope is already in the About page. | |||
*The edit war policy is already on the vandalism policy page (i.e., discussion ''before'' controversial change to existing state of article). In addition, the wider wiki community policy on edit warring is covered [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Edit_warring here], which we base a lot of our behavioral policies on. | |||
*The out-universe nature of Appearance and Origin sections is displayed in the [[KHWiki:Project_Items|consensus formats]], as called out in the edit window every time you edit a mainspace article. | |||
*The move-trivia-at-all-costs explicit policy is covered on the trivia template, [[Forum:Glorious trivia cleansing|here]] and in the previous version of the MoS. Granted, it looks like you revised the MoS in 2017 to remove that rule. It looks to me like no one caught that, as it's not discussed at all on the talk page, but granted it could have been something everyone else saw and agreed with and just failed to call out, so I've opened a thread on the MoS talk page to confirm that. However, it ''was'' a longstanding rule of the wiki that you personally rewrote, so I most definitely did not make it up. | |||
::::::So I really don't get where you're basing the accusation that I belittled anyone for things that are "unfindable". | |||
::::::"That's like saying that because Sora has an article, so, too, should Sora's raft from the first game." -- [[Highwind (raft)]] | ::::::"That's like saying that because Sora has an article, so, too, should Sora's raft from the first game." -- [[Highwind (raft)]] | ||
::::::"I frankly doubt that a particular artwork, no matter how official, counts as being an appearance in the ''Kingdom Hearts'' series in the spirit of this sentence." -- | ::::::"I frankly doubt that a particular artwork, no matter how official, counts as being an appearance in the ''Kingdom Hearts'' series in the spirit of this sentence." -- This is not correct. The wiki's scope has long been agreed to include all pieces of the series, including the Key Arts. That's why we have articles on the toys, the manga chapters, the novels, and even the facebook minigames. That's why we cover Key Arts to begin with. The community has for ages agreed that we cover ''everything'', and if you want to change that, you owe the community far more than your own four-person discussion over a weekend. (to be clear -- moving the image to the gallery falls within policy. ''Removing the notation entirely'' is not justified or required by policy, and therefore a new evaluation of the ''existing'' discussion, either relying on existing policy or reaching out to the wider community to ensure that the obsoletion/deviation from policy is consented to, should be sought. To that end: '''I'm on board with moving the image to the gallery, and I would even be in agreement with moving coverage of non-canon depictions to the gallery in a general sense. But it is still completely valid commentary to note that the depiction is nonstandard, and in fact our own caption policy behooves us to give more prose justification to the image's existence on our servers beyond "this exists". Gallery pages should not be treated simply as image folders, they should still contain commentary.''') | ||
::::::"the process of discussing them on the article's talk page and reaching a consensus as a community has been carried out. " -- no. It hasn't. They were performed (by performing a revert war), and ''then'' discussed ("However, when it is apparent that an edit war may take place, immediately suggest the use of the article's talk page, and avoid editing the article itself."). And it was performed between | ::::::"the process of discussing them on the article's talk page and reaching a consensus as a community has been carried out. " -- no. It hasn't. They were performed (by performing a revert war), and ''then'' discussed ("However, when it is apparent that an edit war may take place, immediately suggest the use of the article's talk page, and avoid editing the article itself."). And it was performed between four editors and an anon, over the course of ''two days'', without dealing with the points raised in the previous discussion on the matter, or seeking comment from the editors involved in the previous discussion, or even ''the other party in the dispute''. | ||
:::::::"being hypocritical in your arguments whenever something doesn't go your way" -- I'm going to ask you to either provide evidence or retract that, because I have ''personally requested'' to be banned from the wiki or had my staff powers revoked when I saw that the wiki policies disagreed with my actions. I have had people literally follow me around the web harassing me because I stood up for ''you | :::::::"being hypocritical in your arguments whenever something doesn't go your way" -- I'm going to ask you to either provide evidence or retract that, because I have ''personally requested'' to be banned from the wiki or had my staff powers revoked when I saw that the wiki policies disagreed with my actions. I have had people literally follow me around the web harassing me or speaking ill of me because I stood up for ''you personally'', NinjaSheik, even when I disagreed with what you were saying. | ||
::::::"the majority of users here" -- ...the | ::::::"the majority of users here" -- ...the four editors and anon over a weekend, in ''this specific conversation thread alone'' ('''''not''''' including the viewpoints expressed by other editors higher up in the page) agreed. And did so without seeking a response from the other party in the dispute. | ||
::::::'''I want to make sure I fully understand what you | ::::::'''I want to make sure I fully understand what you are saying: are you saying that we can disregard or throw out previous decisions and policies based on a discussion between four editors over a weekend in which the other party in the dispute isn't even asked for a response?''' Is this correct?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 12:56, 6 August 2019 (UTC) | ||
<big><big>'''Guys!'''</big></big> Pause. What the actual hell? If I get a warning/banned/whatever for this, so be it. Seriously though. What the actual hell? This supposed-to-be discussion has turned into such a cesspool and mess that the original issue is lost. Before I get to that, and I'm so inactive what I think/say/do/did probably doesn't mean a damn (which is fine, because ''I AM'' inactive/old/outdated/"you-kids-get-off-my-lawn"), but I'm really disappointed. ...And I'll just sum it up with that. But, seriously. I don't know whether to be disappointed or ticked off with you guys. And THAT hurts and sucks. Ridiculous. | |||
Regarding trivia: We spent a long time getting rid of trivia sections and incorporating them into the article a long time ago, mainly because we deemed it better to have in the appropriate main sections instead of tacked onto the end. In truth, the literal definition of trivia is common sense enough to merit what should be in that section...'''except''' this now creates a problem- which lead to the mess we're in now. It talks about appearance (which means it goes in the appearance section), but it's also an irrelevant/"cool" tid-bit (which means it goes in trivia)? What TSH has proposed is a fine compromise. The image deserves to exist on the article somewhere/in some namespace because it is a published piece on something related to ''Kingdom Hearts''. In my opinion, it belongs either in a gallery (to compromise) or be incorporated into the appearance section (if we agree that published/confirmed artwork counts in this realm), but definitely not trivia because it can be added somewhere else that makes more sense- ''it has more value.'' THIS is what we should be discussing. | |||
My biggest issue is how this wasn't discussed or handled properly. No one created a forum post. No one started tagging on user talk pages. No one started tagging on Discord until it became the ridiculous mess it is now. If you tag people and they don't respond in the agreed upon or mentioned/respectable amount of time, then fine. Because then you can say "I tried, they didn't respond." We do all of this for two main reasons: 1) So we give people [the community] time to think and then respond, and 2) Cover our asses. However, when you fail to do this, this does not mean this is the set-in-stone, confirmed, we're doing it. You need more people for that. If they don't respond, then that's a different story. La-ti-da to them. Even when more people tag in on this, it doesn't make it set-in-stone, permanent for all time either...because we're a Wiki and people and times change! Which is fine! | |||
However, going about it how this issue was handled was unprofessional and immature on everyone- and, as a staff member, I'm more embarrassed not because we're trying to figure this out, but how people went about voicing their opposition/thoughts. Especially other staff members. | |||
Regarding policies of all kinds (behavior, edit warring, editing, etc.): Most of those are unwritten things assumed to be known by most people. I got in trouble with this a lot when I was first starting- didn't have a clue until I asked older staff members/users and they redirected me to Wikipedia policies, old discussions, etc. I am in complete agreement of formally writing up a central page linking Wiki-behavior. The MoS is for articles, do those revisions/discussions on there/on the forums. Hell, BebopKate is the one who pushed writing out [[KHWiki:Administrators|what/who administrators and staff members are]] because we were having so many problems with non-staff vs staff arguments/who qualifies as staff/what does staff have the power to do and not to do/etc. So...'''Let's do it!''' Someone start drafting, post it on a forum, recruit other people to help, keep drafting, spam people that forum for improvements/discussion, let's revise, let's confirm, let's publish it- '''let's do it!''' | |||
These passionate arguments about feelings and personal attacks on people are over. Not because we're not the Jerry Springer show, but that they're counterproductive to everyone and a waste of time. In truth, we should copy this discussion onto a forum and continue it there. Not because Xion4ever says so, because she is both literally and figuratively a [[Nobody]], but that this is becoming more wordy and sidetracked than we want on this talk page. If/when that happens, someone needs to post the link to said forum here so future people know where to go/what happened. The part on what warrants the trivia section needs discussed on the MoS talkpage that Kryten opened. {{User:Xion4ever/Sig}} 19:07, 6 August 2019 (UTC) | |||
:Thank you for chastising me, Xion, and I second your suggestion to move the policy discussion to forums for wider community discussion.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 20:10, 6 August 2019 (UTC) | |||
::The discussion continues on [[Forum:Continuing from Roxas (talk)|this forum for certain behavioral discussions]] and [[Forum:Manual on Policies and Procedures (or, The Book)|here for policy clarification and improvement]]. This section should only be added to as it relates to the merits of adding or moving the artwork in question. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 23:51, 6 August 2019 (UTC) (EDIT: 05:15, 7 August 2019 (UTC)) | |||
== All these years since KH2, but just noticed this. == | |||
Has anyone made note of Roxas's idle model. Unlike Ventus or Sora, who stand perfectly semetrical, Roxas does not. Pay close attention. Roxas's left foot is always to his side, just a bit. And his posture is slightly tilted to the left as well. The only time Roxas stands balanced is when wielding keyblades. ([[Special:Contributions/174.198.10.203|174.198.10.203]] 08:32, 21 November 2019 (UTC)) | |||
:And the significance of this....is? --[[User:Samoa Joe|Samoa Joe]] ([[User talk:Samoa Joe|talk]]) 16:10, 21 November 2019 (UTC) | |||
== Abilities == | |||
Shouldn't there be a note that unlike Sora, who has constantly had his powers reset, Roxas has not; thus his combat skills represent what Sora could be if he retained all his abilities from the other games. It explains why he is so powerful in Kingdom Hearts 3. Since Roxas never lost his powers, only the memory of how to use them, logically doesn't this mean he's more power up than Sora?([[Special:Contributions/174.197.0.88|174.197.0.88]] 08:40, 1 December 2019 (UTC)) | |||
:Besides the Keyblade, Roxas doesn't really borrow powers/abilities from Sora so I wouldn't say that Roxas is just Sora if Sora never got his power reset. As for if Roxas is more powerful than Sora, that's up to interpretation more than anything (unless nomura outright states that he is in which case that'd be noteworthy) but that goes for power levels in general. Is Donald Duck more powerful than Terra-Xehanort and X-Blade Master Xehanort because he can use Zettaflare and fire an über friendship laser? I don't know but since it's not a set-in-stone fact whether he is or not I couldn't really put it on a wiki page as if it were. [[User:Pureautism|Pureautism]] ([[User talk:Pureautism|talk]]) 09:14, 1 December 2019 (UTC) | |||
== Roxas on Destiny Islands == | |||
In Days, there's a shot of Roxas leaving the Destiny Islands through a Corridor of Darkness after Xion passes out in Riku's arms (https://youtu.be/mY6kflxFbek?t=5885), but it's not mentioned on his page. Shouldn't it be added? I know what we thought was Roxas at first was really Xion, but I'm pretty sure he was there too, considering we see him leave, and then he tells Axel in the scene afterward he visited the beach. --[[File:Riku Sprite KHD.png]] [[User:Mikoto|mikoto]] 02:40, 6 February 2023 (UTC) | |||