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KHWiki talk:Manual of Style: Difference between revisions
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*(Deleted articles should never be revived on the Wiki until and unless there is enough information to substantiate it. If an article is too stubby and should be merged with another, the Merge template should be used.) The remaining articles (which are remnants of the merger) should be marked with the Delete template. | *(Deleted articles should never be revived on the Wiki until and unless there is enough information to substantiate it. If an article is too stubby and should be merged with another, the Merge template should be used.) The remaining articles (which are remnants of the merger) should be marked with the Delete template. | ||
*(If an article was created or revived in bad faith and has little or nothing to do with the Kingdom Hearts universe, use the Delete template.) | *(If an article was created or revived in bad faith and has little or nothing to do with the Kingdom Hearts universe, use the Delete template.) | ||
*(All discussions about articles for deletion should take place in [[ | *(All discussions about articles for deletion should take place in [[KHWiki:Pages for deletion]] and not on the talk pages of the marked articles.)}} | ||
{{BebopKate|text=I'd like to add an addendum of my own that I've already been going by: component, minor, or insignificant items can be grouped by an identifying characteristic rather than each item having its own page as long as the details of each component are provided (Examples: [[Serenity]] of [[Item synthesis|Synthesis Materials]], [[Engine Gummi]] of [[Gummi Blocks]]).}} | {{BebopKate|text=I'd like to add an addendum of my own that I've already been going by: component, minor, or insignificant items can be grouped by an identifying characteristic rather than each item having its own page as long as the details of each component are provided (Examples: [[Serenity]] of [[Item synthesis|Synthesis Materials]], [[Engine Gummi]] of [[Gummi Blocks]]).}} | ||
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==Updating our MOS== | ==Updating our MOS== | ||
Hey guys. So, honestly, our Manual of Style is super out of date. As a whole, it hasn't been updated in a long time, so I propose that it's time to update it. I've started a draft [[User:KeybladeSpyMaster/Gadget Lab/Project Page 6|here]], but it's by no means complete (we're missing standards and formatting for Merchandise articles and all articles in non-mainspace), and there are some sections that I simply don't know how we cover them or what is expected in them (such as the Items and Equipment and Abilities sections). So I'm hoping we could discuss/define these areas so that we can update our dear MOS and give some more consistency on-site. One of the issues is that even our main games articles are not consistent, so that's part of why I'm doing this. Thoughts? {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 15:04, 7 July 2017 (UTC) | Hey guys. So, honestly, our Manual of Style is super out of date. As a whole, it hasn't been updated in a long time, so I propose that it's time to update it. I've started a '''draft [[User:KeybladeSpyMaster/Gadget Lab/Project Page 6|here]]''', but it's by no means complete (we're missing standards and formatting for Merchandise articles and all articles in non-mainspace), and there are some sections that I simply don't know how we cover them or what is expected in them (such as the Items and Equipment and Abilities sections). So I'm hoping we could discuss/define these areas so that we can update our dear MOS and give some more consistency on-site. One of the issues is that even our main games articles are not consistent, so that's part of why I'm doing this. Thoughts? {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 15:04, 7 July 2017 (UTC) | ||
::Regarding the "The player" should not be referred to as "they". Use the general "he" part... I want to bring this up since I've been reworking the Foretellers' articles. This was brought up in the past (as seen two sections up), but a few users, including myself, voiced our disagreement with that rule, because the singular "they" is considered a better alternative. When rewriting the Foretellers' articles, I have removed the "he", and I'm extremely careful not to assign any gender pronouns when referring to a player's character, since the player's character can either be a "he" or a "she", y'know? I wanted to ask what is the community's stance is now regarding the general "he" and using the singular "they" when referring to the player.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 19:38, 7 July 2017 (UTC) | ::Regarding the "The player" should not be referred to as "they". Use the general "he" part... I want to bring this up since I've been reworking the Foretellers' articles. This was brought up in the past (as seen two sections up), but a few users, including myself, voiced our disagreement with that rule, because the singular "they" is considered a better alternative. When rewriting the Foretellers' articles, I have removed the "he", and I'm extremely careful not to assign any gender pronouns when referring to a player's character, since the player's character can either be a "he" or a "she", y'know? I wanted to ask what is the community's stance is now regarding the general "he" and using the singular "they" when referring to the player.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 19:38, 7 July 2017 (UTC) | ||
:::According to [https://blog.ap.org/products-and-services/making-a-case-for-a-singular-they the Associated Press], the term "they" and it's derivatives can be used in rare cases. This is the grammatical ruling. However, there is technically no grammatically correct gender-neutral pronoun that is entirely accepted in American English. "They" is generally accepted in common usage. I personally prefer to use "they", it's just easier and more commonly accepted. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 04:50, 8 July 2017 (UTC) | :::According to [https://blog.ap.org/products-and-services/making-a-case-for-a-singular-they the Associated Press], the term "they" and it's derivatives can be used in rare cases. This is the grammatical ruling. However, there is technically no grammatically correct gender-neutral pronoun that is entirely accepted in American English. "They" is generally accepted in common usage. I personally prefer to use "they", it's just easier and more commonly accepted. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 04:50, 8 July 2017 (UTC) | ||
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From the looks of it, there's pretty much consensus for us removing that rule, so I've removed it. What about the rest? {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 07:08, 11 July 2017 (UTC) | From the looks of it, there's pretty much consensus for us removing that rule, so I've removed it. What about the rest? {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 07:08, 11 July 2017 (UTC) | ||
::I'd like to address the US or UK convention. This was also previously discussed before (see above section), and there was a small debate about it with some users, but not all. What is the community's stance about using the UK's rules of punctuation, in which all punctuation marks are place inside the quotation marks if they are part of the quoted material and outside if they are not? As before, I am fully supportive of using the UK convention of punctuation.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 19:49, 11 July 2017 (UTC) | ::I'd like to address the US or UK convention. This was also previously discussed before (see above section), and there was a small debate about it with some users, but not all. What is the community's stance about using the UK's rules of punctuation, in which all punctuation marks are place inside the quotation marks if they are part of the quoted material and outside if they are not? As before, I am fully supportive of using the UK convention of punctuation.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 19:49, 11 July 2017 (UTC) | ||
:::Very support.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 02:23, 12 July 2017 (UTC) | |||
::::Wait, is that supposed to be a UK only rule? I was told in school here in the US that we always put the punctuation inside the quotes unless it's not part of the actual quote, as in Did he say, "Fight the Heartless"? I want to make sure I understand the grammar rule being debated here. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 03:50, 12 July 2017 (UTC) | |||
:::::I agree with placing punctuation in quotation marks only if they are part of the quote. As for the draft, I noticed some things that are not completely accurate: | |||
*The example for character page naming says "Mulan, not Fa Mulan" as an example, but the page is called [[Fa Mulan]]. (She's actually called that in one scene, so the example just needs to be removed or replaced) | |||
*"Use the original name of a subject as the title, and add any additional or later names as redirects to the original name." We don't do this for everything, though. For example, [[Surveillance Robot]] does use the first name, but [[Hungry]] and [[Cross Slash]] use the most recent name/spelling. We should make a clear rule about this, especially with KHUX re-translating some names. | |||
:::::I think we should split up the Item and Equipment Articles in Item Articles, Weapon Articles, and Equipment Articles. Equipment Articles (accessories and armor) basically only need a Design and Recipe section, like the [[Diamond Ring]] for example. Most other stuff is handled in the template. Items require a Mechanics, Design, Recipe, Drops, Treasure, Other methods, and Synthesized items section. Weapons have a Story, Design and Gameplay section. Most of these sections are optional though, as not all weapons are part of the story, and the KH accessories have no image, so no design. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 17:39, 12 July 2017 (UTC) | |||
::::::The consensus has long been that if the games give a full "legal" name, that's what we use. We don't hobble ourselves to the journal name, or [[Xemnas]] would be "Mysterious Figure". | |||
::::::As far as I'm aware, the consensus for differing translations has been to use the most recently localized, not the first. | |||
::::::"Use Roman numerals instead of Arabic numerals for titles except when it is the official name. " is redundant to "use official terms at all times". | |||
::::::"Do not use abbreviations. Kingdom Hearts II should be written in full, never use KHII or KH2. " This does not match the wiki consensus. We allow the usage of the official acronyms. | |||
::::::"Avoid using the second person pronoun (you) in articles except for strategies and quotes." This does not match the wiki consensus, which is to avoid using "you" unless literally referring to the human player -- Sora is considered Sora. | |||
::::::"Articles created should be limited to the Kingdom Hearts sphere" -- This is not settled consensus, and I personally think we should be creating articles for anything that is within the scope of the official KH franchise, like events and, yes, staff (but probably on a list page). | |||
::::::"For introductory sentences, circular definitions are not allowed, because they do not explain anything to the reader" -- This is unenforceable. The series uses many low-effort names like "Master Xehanort's Keyblade" that can't really be explained beyond that. | |||
::::::"(there's no coding for that anyway). " There is, we just don't do it. | |||
::::::"Wikilinking is limited to the first occurrence of the word or phrase. " Linked once per article, sure but it should be linked in the most useful location. It doesn't always help to have a mass of blue at the start of the page. | |||
::::::"The first letters of all original weapons e.g. Keyblade, Buster Sword, Identity Disc, must be capitalized." -- redundant to "all official terms should be capitalized as in the published materials". | |||
::::::"Speculation should not be added into any article whatsoever unless there is enough information to substantiate it. If the article concerns a character about to be released, there shall be a section for speculation, but do not add speculation into the Trivia page." -- Nope. No speculation, whatsoever, for any reason, in perpetuity. If it's on the wiki, it needs to be citable to officially published materials or representatives of the franchise. | |||
::::::"Categories on Kingdom Hearts Wiki should be in-wiki and in-game." -- Not clear what this means. | |||
::::::"The remaining articles (which are remnants of the merger) should be marked with the Delete template. " -- No, if the original articles were official terms, they should become redirects. The goal is to have every official term be a searchable title that takes the reader to information on that item. | |||
::::::"No extensive research if it is covered by other companies, or has appeared in other films or games (e.g. Disney's Goofy shouldn't be further elaborated in Goofy's article). Priority should go towards the in-game appearance rather than their respective original games/films." -- Agree, but please elaborate that these Origin sections should prioritize Disney details that are reflected in the KH depiction, not just "in house of mouse, Scar ate a donut.".{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 21:58, 12 July 2017 (UTC) | |||
Ok, so I've made some changes to my draft to accommodate some of these ideas. | |||
*We need to come to a consensus on whether or not we use the most recent localization/name, or the original. Either way, they all get articles, it's just deciding which is the main one and which are redirects. | |||
*TSH, I agree with splitting up the Items and Equipment section. I kept it together because I'm not too familiar with that area of articles, so I wasn't sure how to best describe the formatting that should be followed. I'll try and incorporate your ideas into my Word document that I make edits to while I'm at work tomorrow (that way I don't lose my progress). | |||
*Kryten, I did a quick search and have found very few, almost no instances of the use of acronyms like KHII or KH3D in actual article text. We generally use it as tags (such as {{tname|KHII}}) and infoboxes, and in quoting interviews or hidden comments within the page, but never in the article text. I think using abbreviations, even if they're official, is a little less professional than what we're going for here, at least in the actual article text. | |||
*We should definitely discuss how broad we want our coverage on the wiki to be and come to a consensus on that. I'm down to cover everything if we can come up with a good format for each kind of article so we can add here. | |||
*A lot of what you brought up, Kryten, is actually removed or rewritten in the draft article I wrote. Example: the speculation bit was removed and reworded under "Trivia" as not counting as trivia. I also wrote a draft for our Help:Editing page that more explicitly states that Trivia is not allowed; we could add that same language to the MOS if we want. I also deleted the "Deleted Articles" section because I don't feel it fits here. It'd probably be best to merge that into an introductory Delete policy on the Articles for Deletion page. | |||
I'll work on the rest of the suggestions in the morning when I go to work. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 07:21, 13 July 2017 (UTC) | |||
::Ah, I was looking at the wrong page. | |||
::As far as localizations, the consensus is definitely to use the most recent. That's why [[Hungry]] is a full article, instead of [[Mystery]] or [[Serenity]]. We do have a backlog of things to be moved to new titles, for pages with many links going towards them.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 14:48, 13 July 2017 (UTC) | |||
:::To answer you question, KeybladeSpyMaster, the U.S. convention is when the commas and periods are placed inside the quotation marks. This has always been the rule taught to students in the U.S., as far as I'm aware of, anyway. The U.K. convention of punctuation is called logical quotation or logical punctuation, which all punctuation marks are place inside the quotation marks if they are part of the quoted material and outside if they are not. So, for example: | |||
::::U.S: Demyx refers to Saïx as "X-face." | |||
::::U.K: Demyx refers to Saïx as "X-face". | |||
:::So, the consensus is to use the U.K. convention on the wiki.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 20:34, 13 July 2017 (UTC) | |||
:::::Alright, so I've updated my draft to reflect what was mentioned here. We should definitely discuss if we want to expand our coverage on the wiki as Kryten has suggested, but for now, we should implement the MOS as is and then update it as we continue to make changes to our policies and rules on-site. Is there anything else we're presently doing that isn't covered in the draft? Or can we go ahead an update the MOS? {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 17:01, 19 July 2017 (UTC) | |||
<<bump>> {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 20:28, 6 September 2017 (UTC) | |||
:I think we're good to go. No one raised any objections. The MOS is a WIP, definitely. For now, let's just update the MOS with the draft we currently have and add and change things along the way, like you suggested. Sounds good?--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 21:41, 6 September 2017 (UTC) | |||
::I went ahead and updated the MOS. Like you said, it's still a work in progress, as the wiki as a whole is. As far as I can tell, I addressed all the concerns brought up, but if I missed any, by all means, go ahead and add them. This is just super important with Kingdom Hearts III coming and, more likely than not, all the new users hyped by the game. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 22:40, 6 September 2017 (UTC) | |||
:::I made a slight edit to it, adding the U.K. punctuation rule and cut out some lines I thought was redundant. Maybe we should add a "General Writing Style" section onto the page? I've seen a few wikias have them, detailing some basic rules, like not using contractions in articles because they're considered informal, reminding users that vandalism is prohibited, and that events that happen in X or Y isn't canon to the main series.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 22:33, 7 September 2017 (UTC) | |||
== Trivia == | |||
I've become aware that KSM's rewrite of the MoS in 2017 removed the restriction on trivia that stated "If merging bits of trivial information to the main body is possible, then by all means, do so." | |||
The MoS ''was'' approved by review of the community at the time, but no one specifically mentioned this change. As such, I'd like to note it here to provide the community the opportunity to confirm that said change is intentional and acceptable, or if we want to retain the previous rule on only allowing trivia that cannot be made to fit in the rest of the article.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 13:17, 6 August 2019 (UTC) | |||
:Proposal to re-add previous restriction back into MoS. Anything that cannot be intelligently incorporated into the main article/subsections should then be placed in trivia as just that: trivial tid-bits. {{User:Xion4ever/Sig}} 18:50, 6 August 2019 (UTC) | |||
== Order of sections on item pages == | |||
Currently, item pages are ordered by obtainment method. Which means that if you want to find out where to find a certain item in a game, you have to check each section. Wouldn't it be easier to sort them by game, like how the world Game: pages are organized? It would make it much easier to see where to get an item. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 17:01, 27 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
:Unless someone can argue otherwise, I'm down for sorting by game. {{User:Xion4ever/Sig}} 20:53, 27 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
::I think that would be fine, for the sake of convenience!--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 01:02, 28 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
==Design & Personality Sections Order== | |||
I've been meaning to bring this up, but keep forgetting: I've noticed when doing minor fixes for certain characters' pages, the order of Design and Personality sections are swapped. MoS has it Personality section goes first before Design, but I'd like to recommend we switch this around so that Design goes first instead of Personality. Personally, I've always found that to be a better order to follow.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 01:02, 28 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
:I agree. For some reason that does make more sense. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 17:39, 28 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
::I don't think I can put into words very eloquently, but I guess it's because Designs are more important than Personality sections and should be put first ahead of it? ^_^; Is there any objections?--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 03:34, 29 August 2020 (UTC) | |||
:::Since no objections were raised, I'm assuming that everyone is okay with the change.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 03:25, 1 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
== Music pages for arrangements == | |||
For clarification, I propose we add a note about arrangements of songs going under the original article, rather than their own. | |||
As for why, it makes sense that tracks like "Hand in Hand -Reprise-", "Olympus Coliseum -The Shining Summit-", and "Rage Awakend -The Origin-" would fall under the same page as the original tracks; it's really no different than the ''KHII'' version of "A Day in Agrabah" being in the same article as the original arrangement. Clarifying this in the MoS would also help us avoid another "Blast Away!" situation where we have four articles for the same song. | |||
This would also apply to tracks such as "Kairi", "Wave of Darkness", and "L'Eminenza Oscura", whose versions explicitly fall under separate articles in the current MoS. This is the only real change, but "Kairi" already is consolidated into one article, so it's just updating the MoS to reflect more current edits. [[User:Aid1043|Aid1043]] ([[User talk:Aid1043|talk]]) 22:18, 22 April 2022 (UTC) | |||
== Game abbreviations for infobox tabs == | |||
We need to come up with consistent abbreviations for infobox tabs; as it is now, worlds, items, enemies, and music tracks use different ones. (Example: for ''Re:coded'', worlds use "KHc", tracks use "KHREC", characters use "KHRec", and some pages use "KHRCO".) There are two main standards in use: all caps (KHRECOM, KHBBS, KHX) and varying case (KHReCOM, KHBbS, KHχ). And then some random articles use a third way (KHRe:COM). Plus, while most of the time the HD collections are done like "KHHD2.5", some pages use "KHIIHD". We should make a list of abbreviations so that all articles are consistent with each other. –[[User:Aid1043|Aid1043]] ([[User talk:Aid1043|talk]]) 15:51, 6 September 2022 (UTC) | |||
:I agree that we should standardize this. I think all caps might be the best option (with the exception of the χ). At the top of [[Template:c]] is a list of abbreviations that are used for pages with game tags. It might be good to follow that for consistency. For the HD collections, I think "KHHD2.5" might be better, as "KHIIHD" looks like it's a version of KHII, like "KHIIFM" or "KHIIIRM". {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 17:23, 6 September 2022 (UTC) | |||
::So, something like this: | |||
::{| border="1" | |||
!Game||Abbreviation | |||
|- | |||
|''Kingdom Hearts''||KH | |||
|- | |||
|''Kingdom Hearts Final Mix''||KHFM | |||
|- | |||
|''Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories''||KHCOM | |||
|- | |||
|''Kingdom Hearts Re:Chain of Memories''||KHRECOM | |||
|- | |||
|''Kingdom Hearts II''||KHII | |||
|- | |||
|''Kingdom Hearts II Final Mix''||KHIIFM | |||
|- | |||
|''Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days''||KHD | |||
|- | |||
|''Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep''||KHBBS | |||
|- | |||
|''Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep Final Mix''||KHBBSFM | |||
|- | |||
|''Kingdom Hearts coded''||KHC | |||
|- | |||
|''Kingdom Hearts Re:coded''||KHREC | |||
|- | |||
|''Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance''||KH3D | |||
|- | |||
|''Kingdom Hearts Dream Drop Distance HD''||KH3DHD | |||
|- | |||
|''Kingdom Hearts χ[chi]''||KHχ | |||
|- | |||
|''Kingdom Hearts Union χ[Cross]''||KHUχ | |||
|- | |||
|''Kingdom Hearts χ Back Cover''||KHχBC | |||
|- | |||
|''Kingdom Hearts 0.2 Birth by Sleep -A fragmentary passage-'' ||KH0.2 | |||
|- | |||
|''Kingdom Hearts III''||KHIII | |||
|- | |||
|''Kingdom Hearts III Re Mind''||KHIIIRM | |||
|- | |||
|''Kingdom Hearts Dark Road''||KHDR | |||
|- | |||
|''Kingdom Hearts Melody of Memory''||KHMOM | |||
|- | |||
|''Kingdom Hearts Missing-Link''||KHML | |||
|- | |||
|''Kingdom Hearts IV''||KHIV | |||
|- | |||
|''Kingdom Hearts HD 1.5 ReMIX''||KHHD1.5 | |||
|- | |||
|''Kingdom Hearts HD 2.5 ReMIX||KHHD2.5 | |||
|} | |||
::Seems good to me. –[[User:Aid1043|Aid1043]] ([[User talk:Aid1043|talk]]) 14:18, 7 September 2022 (UTC) | |||